Cleat position
Why do we place the cleat under the ball of the foot on our cycling shoes? I can find no evidence to support this location. It appears to be simply a result of tradition--cyclists have always done it that way. Last July former pro cyclist and shoe designer Goetz Heine (www.biomac.biz) suggested I try putting my cleats in the arch of my shoes. With some skepticism I tried it. To my amazement my performance improved. In fact, my power-heart rate ratio which I tracked for years improved by 9%. That's a huge change.
Here you can see a picture of my Shimano road shoe with an SPD mountain bike cleat in the arch. I used a mountain bike pedal since the cleat has only two holes and I didn't want to punch too many in the shoe. Crank Brothers pedals also work well for this position.
Since changing over last summer I've done some searching of the scientific literature and found only two studies which looked at the traditional vs. the aft cleat position. Both found there was no difference whether the cleat was under the ball of the foot, at the arch area, or somewhere in between. And those studies were done with experienced cyclists who had not adapted to the arch position.
So is there an advantage in placing the cleats farther back? I believe so. Economy - how much effort it takes to ride at a given power output - improves. There may be lots of reasons for this which I won't go into here. Another advantage is that the biggest muscles of your body - the quads and glutes - are used more since the calf - a relatively small muscle - is now less active and no longer serves as a "transmission" for the biggest muscles. This latter point is especially beneficial for triathletes who rely on those calf muscles as their primary mover when they start the run. Fresh calf muscles mean a better run.
Should you try it? I've suggested to all of the athletes I coach that they move their cleats back toward the heels as far as they can. All that have tried it reported feeling more powerful. The next step for those who use Speedplay pedals will be to try Speedplay's new adaptor (cost $25) which allows them to put the cleat even farther back. If that still feels OK then we will talk about either modifying their existing shoes (not all can be re-drilled) or having custom shoes built (Rocket 7, DS Shoes, BioMac).
posted by Joe Friel @ 5:15 PM
61 Comments
61 Comments:
How did it affect bike handling? Cornering etc? Off the top of my head I would think that would limit body english significantly.
Two issues I see here:
1. Moving the foot forward will generate substantial toe-to-tire overlap. I've ridden bikes with some overlap, and it's no big deal -- if the shoe rubs the tire, I'm going slow enough it doesn't matter much. But this seems like it might be a bit heavy on overlap.
2. It seems to maintain the same range-of-motion in the knee, you'll want to move your seat forward to compensate, with a longer stem to compensate. Without these changes, you might be confounding body position with cleat position.
What about high cadence and sprints?
Susanne Ljungskog used it to be 15th at last WC TT..
http://perso.orange.fr/cyclinfo/Susanne%20Ljungskog.jpg
"I've suggested to all of the athletes I coach that they move their cleats back toward the heels as far as they can."
How about this?
http://img266.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sidihitechcarbsoleuj0.jpg
G'day to all,
To Dan, don't move your seat forward, assuming of course that you have a reasonable position. The substantial drop in seat height required to allow mid foot cleat position will take care of seat position.
Re toe overlap; if you are ducking and diving on the track it may be an issue but for general riding is livable providing you don't track stand too much!
The gent behind this cleat position is Gotz Heine and in my experience to date he is a credible person with well reasoned views and a large bank of testing data to back them up.
Regards,
Steve Hogg
Hi Joe...Steve Neal here...never seen your blog before this is great.
I have my cleats about 1 inch behind the ball of foot and really like it...have only tried on road so far...
Do you know anyone who has tried this mtn biking?
As Steve Hog said, the new cleat position means a lower seat position. For me with my 1,94 cm length, the arch cleat position in combination with the low built height of the biomac shoe let to a 4,3 cm lower seat. This was the result after a fitting and torque analysis session by mr Heine. This position gives me, besides increased power of about 10 %, comparable to what Joe found for himself, also a lot lower point of gravity and therefore better cornering and descending.
any thoughts as to how middle-of-the arch cleat placement affects power output and/or efficiency and/or mechnanics during low cadence, steep climbing and during steep, out of the saddle climbing? this is when the lower leg and calf muscles are typically recruited to a greater extent to assist the quads.
Sorry for the long delay everyone. Too much travel and work...
Lynda--My impression is that it improves handling since you have a lower center of gravity.
Dan--Mine overlaps to about the base of the big toe. Very slow (5-6mph) turns have to be cautious. I scuffed my shoe a few times when I first made the switch. Actually had to move seat aft a bit. As saddle goes down it also goes forward.
Clythio--My cadence increased when I made the switch (I've bee tracking cadence etc for as long as I've had a power meter--1998). I'm not a sprinter but greater power will probably translate to a faster sprint.
Steve Neal--No, I sure don't. Not coaching any MTBers now. Why don't you try it and tell us?
Greg X--My impression is that the calf does not provide significant power to the pedal. It is merely stabilizing the ankle. Power comes largely from quads and glutes. It would be like doing squats on the balls of your feet vs with heels on floor.
Can you post some information about the Speedplay adapter? I tried to find it but didn't have any luck.
Thanks
Terrance--It's not on their website. You'll need to email them to ask about it. Their addy is on their website--"contact us" or some such thing.
I participated in a biomechanics study at Ball State Universtiy a few years back testing this very concept. The study was performed by Jeff Frame for his doctoral disortation. My power was greater at the balls of my feet, but a) not by much and b) most likely due to my training for years that way. Jeff Frame has much information/interest in this subject. Pearl Izumi sponsored the study and donated the shoes we wore.
did it [move it back on my LG sponsored shoe, sorry, had to plug], it works, i can really tell a difference, more power, but really my pedal stroke feels a lot smoother [even on my powercranks]. i did have to lower the saddle a bit. so lets recap, did it, it works, love it, now don't tell anyone....
Speedplay has them For $25 total set back is 13MM. It is an aluminum base plate similar to the black plastic one. It will allow you to move the cleat independent of the base plate so the cleat can go further back.
@ ptapgeek
I do not advise to move the cleats back by 13 mm from the metatarsal/traditional position as in fact this arrangement may result in disturbances of the muscle chain. What I do promote is to build a shoe where you position your cleat under the tarsometatarsal joint, the midfoot, as this is the only position where the body automaticaly takes full advantage of the huge power of quads and hamstrings, therefore pedal way more efficiently.
I have moved by cleat position as far as it alows on my shoes, about 1.2 cm behind the ball of my foot. I did adjust by saddle height, but did find a bid of benifit b moving by saddle about 4 mm forward. Just my experience, but i a real happy with the results anthough i do find that I spin up a bit slower but am able to maintain the same high cadence.
Any tutorials out there on what shoes can be modified and how and where should the holes be drilled? I'd like to give it a try
I would think any soles that are weaker than a steel (or carbite) drill bit should do. I'd suggest drilling the holes in "your" shoes the same pattern as your cleat suggests. I'm sure the folks on here can provide you with more specific instructions, a tutorial if you will.
I just did the conversion and it looks good. I used some plates from my old spd shoes. First Im going to move back the cleats in my normal shoes and then I will try this.
I would know the citation for the studies you viewed Joe(author, title, etc.). Was one based on a recent abstract at the 2006 meeting of American Society of Biomechanics titled "Kinetic and Kinematic Effects of Altering Cleat Placement During Cycling" by Frame & Dugan?
Linked here.
I'm trying to figure out where exactly the tarsometatarsal joint would be? Do you have an image of a person's foot and an way to mark that image where the metatarsal joint should be and etc?
My understanding is that the tarsometatarsal joint is just forward of the inner ankle bone, almost to the boney protuberance just below and forward of the inner ankle bone.
WOW, that's back there!
Joe
Where are you positioning your saddle when using a midsole cleat. It strikes me that this position is also an important part of the increased power-heart rate ratio that you're seeing?
Traditionally, the most important factor in determining the correct setback is the length of the cyclist's femur. As such, and as you know, the saddle is positioned so that the knee's center of rotation is directly over the pedal axle of the forward crank arm when it's horizontal. To determine this position a plumb line is dropped from the riders knee cap so that it intersects the ball of the foot and pedal spindle when the forward crank arm is horizontal. Are you now moving this line from the knee cap to the ball of the foot back to the mid-sole?
If the previous sentences sound familiar I'm paraphrasing Andy Pruitt, which of course is part of the traditional method of establishing the riders saddle position when the cleat is under the ball of the foot.
Thanks
Wayne
I've always been intrigued by Floyd Landi's pedal stroke. It seems that he either has a huge feet or his shoes cleats are positioned towards the middle as well. I did moved back, and I sort of feel more powerful, it seems I am able to push a bigger gear now. Interesting blog, it just being added to my RSS feed.:)
Hi. I'd like to drill some shoes and place a Keo cleat in the midsole position. Can anyone help me with drilling advice?
I'm experienced in drilling wood, but a little scared to drill carbon fiber. Will most soles support this (handle the load)? Is a three-holed attempt asking too much? Everyone else does two-holed. Thanks in advance for your help.
Murphy--Sorry for the delayed reply. I wouldn't recommend a 3-hole drilling in the midsole. Depending on the design of the shoe, there is a chance the cleat will not fit flush. I've used only 2-hole cleats with modified shoes.
Joe - you mention you only use two hole cleats. What pedal type do you use?
I have speedplay and look keo pedals but those are both three and four hole cleat types.
Questions on shoes - you reference the biomac shoes in your posts. Can you purchase those shoes with the cleat holes already built in this position? It was a bit hard to tell from their website. Any other shoe companies that have cleat holes with this position?
Thanks!
Dave
Joe - you mention you only use two hole cleats. What pedal type do you use?
I have speedplay and look keo pedals but those are both three and four hole cleat types.
One final question - you reference the biomac shoes in your posts. Can you purchase those shoes with the cleat holes already built in this position? It was a bit hard to tell from their website. Any other shoe companies that have cleat holes with this position?
Thanks!
Dave
Dave--I use Eggbeaters but SPD mtn bike pedals also are 2 hole. Using 2 hole because the contour of most shoes in arch area will not allow for a flush fit of 3-4 hole cleats if shoe is modified. Biomac shoes are the only ones I know of that come pre-drilled for mid foot position.
Mechanically, I am not so sure about this. The calf is a muscle that is used but should not be a gating factor. So, the weaker the calf, the farther the set back but eliminating the entire muscle seems like a bad idea. For spinning the calf does not really matter, but I don’t know of anyone that gets dropped spinning. Ask a sprinter, and they will tell you where their cleats go. Ask a sprinter if longer feet help. Also, using the squatting analogy, no one runs on their heels unless they are going backwards. The last issue deals with being able to drop your heels into he power part of the stroke. By dropping the heels, the 2 to 4 power part of the stroke where we generate 80% of our power is extended to 1 to 5. The shorter the arm gives you less ability. But then again, what do I know.
I have some questions about Mr. Heine's results in light of the study done at UCDavis on the effects of cleat placements; they found no conclusive evidence that position matters at all. This is the abstract link
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/
query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&
dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=169014
93&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum
Mr Friel or Mr. Hogg can you help me reconcile the differing results by these academics? I can email you a copy of the pdf if would like.
How do you adjust seat post position? I got the Speedplay aluminum plate fore aft adaptor and I am back around 17mm from my normal posiotion. Do I lower the seat post the same 17mm? I got these to help my achilles tendonitis but ironically have noticed a little exacerbation of my symptoms. Thanks. Drew
Anon--Yes, you'll probably have to lower your saddle. Moving the cleat aft 17mm will essentially shorten your leg. Hard to say exactly how much. But be aware that as the saddle goes down it also goes forward about 3mm for every 1cm or so of vertical change.
Gosh, I have no idea why a midsole cleat would aggravate your Achilles. Seems like it would be just the opposite.
Anon, that's what I keep saying - a half-hearted approach to bio-mxc², i.e. shifting your cleats by just a couple of millimetres back, can lead to disturbances in the muscle chain. Therefore either cause irritation of the achilles tendon(little rearward shift)or knee problems (more but insufficient rearward shift, i.e., 10 to 20mm from the ball-above-axle position only). That's some of the reasons why we from biomac Ltd. went through the drama of designing and bringing onto today's cycling shoe market an entirely new cycling shoe - to exclude all possible risks for the arch-cleat user and to improve cycling shoes from scratch in regard of weight, foot-burn, fit and stack-height. So far, practice has been proving us right as apart from some customers who do prefer to continue using their three- or four-hole cleat systems, none of them has been hampered by any of the well-known ailments common amongst users of the traditional cleat position.
Anon, that's what we keep saying - a half-hearted approach to bio-mxc², i.e. shifting back your cleats just by a couple of millimetres, can lead to disturbances in the muscle- chain, therefore either result in irritations of the achilles tendon(mostly with little rearward shift) or knee problems (more,but insufficient rearward shift, i.e., 10 to 30mm only). While there may be small community of riders who due to a history of old injuries may resort in this 'luke-warm' area, the majority of cyclists do nothing but benefit from a clear 'adieu!' to forefoot pushing.
For those, we from biomac Ltd. went through the rough task of developing an entirely new cycling shoe - extremely lightweight,in order to cut down on both, rotational and total weight of the rider, minimum stack-height to improve a cyclist's contact to the pedal and point of gravity, better ventilation and foot climate due to strict absence of glues within the shoe and, last but not least, fit due to a custom-mouldable fitting system and a broader middle section of the sole so to also host various cleat types.
Throughout the comparatively short history of biomac shoes, practice has proven us right as apart from few cyclists who had not been positioned correctly or been hampered by old histories of injuries, everyone else would nothing but benefit from the numerous advantages of bio-mxc² and comfortably forget about the well-known shortcomings of traditional cleat positioning.
It seems to me the easiest way for people to test the benefits of arch cleats would be to swap out your pedals for bmx pedals, then try riding with your foot at different positions, standing and seated.
Or just go to the gym with those uber adjustable 'spinning' bikes, and fiddle with your geometry adjustments and foot placement there.
Hi - my interest with mid arch cleat placement deals more with comfort than power or efficiency. I have an abnormal descepancy in foot lenght and girth. My left foot is almost 2 full American sizes longer than my right; while the girth of my right foot around the ball of the foot is somewhat larger than my left. Most of these foot variations are in my forefoot. From the arch back, my feet are very symetrical. This descepancy in foot geometry has made finding snug fitting athletic shoes a nightmare. For cycling, custom Rocket7's have cured most of my ills. On long hot or very intense rides however, I still get the dreaded hot numb pain - especially in the ball of my right foot. I believe that a mid arch cleat placement, since it may more uniformly distribute pressure on the foot, may relieve or eliminate this pain. Has anyone noticed an improvement in foot comfort, with their mid arch cleats?
Bob--No one has mentioned this to me. My wife has a lot of forefoot discomfort on long rides. She is getting ready for a century in the mountains in July so I will be moving her cleats to midsole to see if that helps. If you do try it please let me know what you found.
Joe and all:
Can anyone provide the mechanical/technical details of drilling through the sole and safely securing the cleats. I'm probably okay with the drilling part, but I'm not sure how to actually secure the cleat screws to the sole. I currently use Sidi Genius 5 shoes and speedplay pedals (I'm already using the new fore/aft speedplay plate), but have used 2-hole spd in the past and will use them again if necessary. Regardless of how many holes I drill (3 vs. 2), I just don't understand how to duplicate the manufacturer's, factory-installed cleat screw receptors. Can anyone provide a step-by-step account of how to actually modify the shoe? Thanks in advance.
Rosie--Not all cycling shoes can be modified for a midsole cleat. If yours can go to your local bike shop and get 2 female bolt receptacles and bolts for MTB cleats such as SPD. They will probably have to fish around in their bolts boxes to find some. Depending on how thick the soles of your bolts. Then drill 2 holes in the shoes. This is the tricky part. They will be evenly spaced between the toe and heel and on line with the center line of your existing cleat. This is the tricky part. It takes some eyeballing to get it right. You can also go here-- http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=2007/letters06-19 -- to read Steve Hogg's much more detailed description of how to install your cleats.
I've been thinking about putting a picture of a template on my blog since I'm asked this so often but have been traveling for 3 weeks with more to go. Watch for it.
Joe - if anyone is interested in my "comfort" test data, they can check out my report on my team website:
http://www.westwoodvelo.com/showthread.php?t=1882
The test was encouraging but inconclusive because I was unable to get a true mid arch cleat setting, and I was using old, well stretched shoes.
Joe,
My right knee is wrecked. After 4 knee op's it doesn't bend past 90 degrees. I have always had to pedal off of my arch on my right foot. In the past I have used Power Grips on my MTB. Problem with Power Grips when your going bite it there is no getting out of them. I cam across your blog and have since modified 2 pairs of MTB shoes, one with SPD cleats and another with Eggbeaters (2 different bikes). You need to get a pedal that has the least degree for release. Shimano at 13 degrees is easier than the Eggbeater at 15. Problem is that your turn out is more difficult from the arch area rather than the ball and sometimes the toe of my shoe hits the crank before I get out. This probably isn't a prob with road biking. But as you know MTB sometimes you want out quickly. I'm going to give a 3 hole a try on my road bike. I'll let you know how it goes.
Thanks
Dave
I couldn't follow up by modifying my Road Shoes with a 3 hole Cleat. Most of the shoes I looked at had a sole that was too narrow at the Arch area to mount a 3 hole cleat. I did buy an awesome pair of shoes from Rocket7. They modified the shoe and put the base plate in the Arch, and it was set up for 3 hole Cleats. The Shoes were way more than what i needed in the way of performance and they are expensive. Although I needed the Arch Mounted Cleat due to injury rather than most of the others on this blog. So I can't tell you if it works better to pedal off of the Arch or the Ball as I always have had no choice but to pedal off of the Arch position. What I can tell you is this shoe has made it possible for me to have the performance of being clipped in. I couldn't be happier! Thanks to Dean and the folks at Rocket7. Your shoes are Great!
Dave
DaveB,
You are correct about the added difficulty in releasing the clip. I modifed my road bike that has Eggbeaters and now I would like to do the same for my MTB. I am going to purchase a new pair of MTB shoes is there anything I should be on the lookout for?
I'm in favor of the midfoot cleat position. In my intuition, that tells me that the pedaling forces are more spread out across the foot rather than on the ball of the feet. Atleast in my case, there's a lot more flesh in the mid section. This may avoid burning and hotspots that many folks complain about.
The calves also don't have to involve themselves in stabilizing the feet. Thats wasted motion really.
I'm going to do a 20 min time trial and see how my average power differs...
Joe, did Floyd really have his cleats midfoot? I thought I read someone's comment saying so...
Ron--Not that I know of. Tyler has recently though, at least according to one photo that made the rounds a few months ago.
Hi Joe,
I raced a 24hr race this weekend, but had to pull out at 11hrs due to extremely sore achillies tendons on both legs.
Do you think that changing cleat position to as close to mid sole will help?
This is a big change in position.
I have moved them back as far as they will go on my S
Shimano MTB shoes
I have MTB pedals on my road bike as well.
thank you
Jason.
Jason--No way of knowing for certain. There's only one way to find out.
Why not have two Cleats? one 'traditional' and one in the arch. During a long ride the rider can swap when he feels like it?? or am I missing something painfully obvious?
m,waller--I kind of did that a couple of years ago. Had a pair of shoes drilled for both positions. Found I never wanted to use the forefoot position, though. Midfoot was much more effective for me.
Due to a neurological problem, I can only achieve sufficient power by using the arch of my foot. I now find that I will need to move to recumbent trike bike for added stability. Have you any experience or thoughts about moving the cleat back for pleasure riding a recumbent bike
thanks
bruce--No, I've never had any experience with mid-sole cleats for recumbents. But I don't see why that would make a difference. Let us know what you discover.
bruce--it works great!Talked some of them into it and they simply love it although they do not benefit from all the other aspects such as lower point of gravity, better aerodynamics or bike handling.especially on climbs they feel so much better. soon our site www.biomac.biz is renovated we will publish some pictures. Go and try yourself!
bruce--we talked some recumbent riders into using bio-mxc²(arch cleat)and they feel it works great, especially on the hills. although they do not benefit from lower seat, better handling or improved aerodynamics they feel stronger on their bikes and produce sustained effort.soon our site www.biomac.biz will be back online we will publish some photos of these guys.
I am using speedplay zero pedals & cannondale by diadora shoes size 41 and moved my cleats rearward i.e over the ball of the smallest toe.
I am currently trying different cleat positions: 2 weeks ago I placed the cleats about 5mm from the middle of the arch, lowered the saddle by 12mm and took my bike for a 25km ride, I experienced soreness on both my hamstrings, so I moved the cleats forward over the ball of the smallest toe & raised the saddle 5mm. I now feel no soreness with my hamstrings & I will try this cleat position for several more weeks.
Regarding control/bike handling, if you are standing out of the seat you have much better balance over your wheels when the cleat is centred under the foot. We recommend this for mountainbikers especially where handling skills are important. It is great for climbing and sprinting too so no real disadvantage.
Anon, no wonder you experienced sore hamstrings as switching from traditional ball-above-axle to bio-mxc²(arch-cleat) you will need to lower your saddle something like 20-25mms(!). Using our Y²shoes you will be able to lower your seatpost around 35mms (+/-5mms)due to reduced stack height. Enjoy!
This is all very interesting. Common sense tells experienced cycling veterans if making changes...do it slowly and methodically. Maybe only move your cleats back 2mm once per 2-3 days. Ride, then adjust again as needed. If you move cleats back too fast you run the risk of creating sore hamstrings, sore knees, etc. Bottom line, using a Computrainer can tell if you really are generating more or less power. Good luck.
Nobody seems to note in all this arch-cleat discussion that moving the cleat back effectively increases your lever arm through the power stroke (1 to 5 o-clock), shortens it through the back stroke (7 to 11 o-clock) and leaves it unchanged at the top and bottom (as opposed to longer cranks which increase the lever arm all the way around).
@anon Moving the cleats back gradually hoping the body would slowly adapt is as if would set out to jump a bar using a straddle technique and then, suddenly switch to the Fosbory flop. Understand that although bio-mxc²(arch cleat) takes advantage of the same muscles involved in spinning it uses them in a totally different but far more efficient slope. At the same time when you think of the spinning movement as a circle it is obvious that the foot spends more time (and centimeters) in downstroke action, therefore needs less force to do so. This is the simple but effective essence about bio-mxc²(arch cleats) as can be seen on:
http://biomac.webstudios.at/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16:tretpiktogramm&catid=1:text&Itemid=9
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